Reflection’s founders on building a DeepSeek of the West
Reflection is soon releasing Beam, its first open-weight AI model, in a bid to become the DeepSeek of the West. Trained from scratch, Beam is designed for coding, reasoning, and AI agents. Reflection's benchmarks put it alongside the strongest open models, with substantially more efficient token economics.
To mark Beam’s debut, I'm joined by Reflection's co-founders: CEO
@MishaLaskin, who led reward modeling for Google’s Gemini, and CTO
@real_ioannis, who helped create AlphaGo and AlphaZero before leading Gemini’s RLHF effort. Reflection has raised $4.6 billion from investors that include Nvidia, Sequoia, and Lightspeed.
We discuss why Chinese labs pulled ahead in open AI models, how Reflection built Beam, and why the founders think companies and countries will increasingly want to control their own models. I ask how they plan to make money from open-weight AI, whether openness can make these systems safer, and what comes next for Reflection.
Timestamps:
00:00 Why open models are surging
01:06 Renting vs. owning intelligence
03:40 Open models catch up
05:53 Why China led open AI
08:03 Introducing Beam
10:05 Scaling reinforcement learning
14:09 Training from scratch
16:04 Safety, alignment and openness
32:29 The Reflection origin story
37:32 Making money on open models
42:33 Vertical integration and compute
48:45 Partnerships and distribution
56:46 What’s next for Reflection
Links:
podcast.sources.news/
Spotify:
open.spotify.com/show/3p1KZv…
YouTube:
piped.video/BKnAeVej0dc
Substack:
sources.news/p/reflection-fo…
Thanks to the show’s premier sponsors:
@Atlassian,
@meetgranola, and
@mercury.